Scholar,
Sorry, I missed a word in my previous post. It should read:
"And never mind that when these secular sources arrive at that date of 539 BCE, they are using dates and chronologies that the WTS does not accept."
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
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26
For your research: Chart for 70 Years for Babylon
by Lady Liberty in609- nabopolassars 17th reignal year.
607- nabopolassars 19th reignal year.
605- nabopolassars 21st reignal year.
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Creationist Evolution
by GapingMouth ini've been having some small but effective chats with my wife of late.
she is, i hope, starting to think about some things a bit better now regarding the wts.
when i told her of the rule about not hugging in the prayer, she thought it so absurd and thought i was telling lies until she saw it herself.
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Doug Mason
Evolution has reached the stage of being a Theory. In science, a Theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true. Because Evolution is a Theory it can be used to underscore modern science, such as in the work of medicine.
Darwin was not the first evolutionist; for example, Lamarck (1744-1829) proposed his theory in the very year Darwin was born, 200 years ago. Darwin (1809-1882) worked on his ideas for a long time and only rushed into print when he heard that another was about to publish their ideas on the evolutionary process. He got much of his ideas from observing the behaviour of natives in South America.
Regarding Apes and Man, have you researched all the latest information regarding Ardipithecus?
Creationists have no demonstrable evidences that enable their ideas to reach the status of a Theory. At best it can be called a hypothesis. Their’s is a negative campaign that is predetermined by their concerns at the conclusions that would be reached. Their prior concern with the end-point affects their reasoning.
Where did the community that wrote Genesis get its information? It’s not valid to reason that it was transmitted orally for thousands of years from Adam, since that assumes there was an Adam in the first place, which makes the reasoning circular. It’s not reasonable to say they had adequate scientific knowledge to formulate a scientifically sound hypothesis.
When was their story written? When did writing first become a viable means of communication? It is likely that the Torah began to be written about the 8th century BCE, to be refined by the priests during or shortly after the Babylonian Exile.
What was the motive of the groups that conceived and refined the story? The parallels of days 1 to 3 with days 4 to 6, culminating in the Sabbath, indicate that the motive was to embed the Sabbath into the universality of mankind. It would therefore be reasonable to say that the writers started with the religious agenda of establishing their sacred day, and that is the reason the story is structured thus.
Since they did not use YHWH in their account, but rather used the God El, it should indicate a probable source of the story. The second account of Creation, the YHWH account, focuses on the creation of Man. The desired conclusion determined the story.
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The WTS has greater problems, for it does not believe the days are 24-hours, but that each day is either 1000 years or maybe even 7000 years. So it does not believe the story literally, either. And the interdependence of animals and plants could not be sustained were each created so far apart.
What about the matter of death and dying? Everything that is eaten was once alive. Everything.
How long does it take light to reach the furthest star from one side of the sky to the other? How long does it take light or radio signals to reach us from the bodies in deep space? Far far longer than that proposed by Young Earth Creationists.
Rather than attack the evidence that provides the facts of Evolution, the Creationists need to provide sufficient evidence to produce a Theory, not just a preconceived hypothesis.
It is not up to us to tell God how he has to work. If evolution does not fit our preconceptions, then it is we who must accept that God works according to his own ways, not ours.
A key feature that makes humankind very different from others is our preoccupation with our death and the afterlife.
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Creationist Evolution
by GapingMouth ini've been having some small but effective chats with my wife of late.
she is, i hope, starting to think about some things a bit better now regarding the wts.
when i told her of the rule about not hugging in the prayer, she thought it so absurd and thought i was telling lies until she saw it herself.
-
-
Doug Mason
Evolution has reached the stage of being a Theory. In science, a Theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true. Because Evolution is a Theory it can be used to underscore modern science, such as in the work of medicine.
Darwin was not the first evolutionist; for example, Lamarck (1744-1829) proposed his theory in the very year Darwin was born, 200 years ago. Darwin (1809-1882) worked on his ideas for a long time and only rushed into print when he heard that another was about to publish their ideas on the evolutionary process. He got much of his ideas from observing the behaviour of natives in South America.
Regarding Apes and Man, have you researched all the latest information regarding Ardipithecus?
Creationists have no demonstrable evidences that enable their ideas to reach the status of a Theory. At best it can be called a hypothesis. Their’s is a negative campaign that is predetermined by their concerns at the conclusions that would be reached. Their prior concern with the end-point affects their reasoning.
Where did the community that wrote Genesis get its information? It’s not valid to reason that it was transmitted orally for thousands of years from Adam, since that assumes there was an Adam in the first place, which makes the reasoning circular. It’s not reasonable to say they had adequate scientific knowledge to formulate a scientifically sound hypothesis.
When was their story written? When did writing first become a viable means of communication? It is likely that the Torah began to be written about the 8th century BCE, to be refined by the priests during or shortly after the Babylonian Exile.
What was the motive of the groups that conceived and refined the story? The parallels of days 1 to 3 with days 4 to 6, culminating in the Sabbath, indicate that the motive was to embed the Sabbath into the universality of mankind. It would therefore be reasonable to say that the writers started with the religious agenda of establishing their sacred day, and that is the reason the story is structured thus.
Since they did not use YHWH in their account, but rather used the God El, it should indicate a probable source of the story. The second account of Creation, the YHWH account, focuses on the creation of Man. The desired conclusion determined the story.
-----------------------
The WTS has greater problems, for it does not believe the days are 24-hours, but that each day is either 1000 years or maybe even 7000 years. So it does not believe the story literally, either. And the interdependence of animals and plants could not be sustained were each created so far apart.
What about the matter of death and dying? Everything that is eaten was once alive. Everything.
How long does it take light to reach the furthest star from one side of the sky to the other? How long does it take light or radio signals to reach us from the bodies in deep space? Far far longer than that proposed by Young Earth Creationists.
Rather than attack the evidence that provides the facts of Evolution, the Creationists need to provide sufficient evidence to produce a Theory, not just a preconceived hypothesis.
It is not up to us to tell God how he has to work. If evolution does not fit our preconceptions, then it is we who must accept that God works according to his own ways, not ours.
A key feature that makes humankind very different from others is our preoccupation with our death and the afterlife.
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26
For your research: Chart for 70 Years for Babylon
by Lady Liberty in609- nabopolassars 17th reignal year.
607- nabopolassars 19th reignal year.
605- nabopolassars 21st reignal year.
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Doug Mason
G’day Scholar,
Yes, there is a 20-year gap between the neo-Babylonian chronology and the Watchtower’s interpretation. The following is the Watchtower’s “Chronology”, from Awake! March 22, 1960. This is what they call a “chronology”.-------------------The question: “Then how is the date 607 ascertained?
(WTS Step #1) “Using 539 BC, when Babylon was overthrown, as a starting point, since it is a proved and generally accepted historical date and one that pinpoints the year of a specific event mentioned in the Bible,
(WTS Step #2) “We count two years to the time when a band of Jewish exiles returned to their homeland, having been freed by King Cyrus. This brings us to 537 BC and is in agreement with the rest of Bible chronology.”
(WTS Step #3) “Since at Daniel 9:2 we read of the seventy years of desolation foretold by the prophet Jeremiah, it follows that the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem began seventy years before, or in 607 BC.”--------------------Let's briefly consider this "chronology".
(Response to WTS Step #1)
So we see that the WTS accepts 539 BCE from secular sources because they agree on that date. The WTS has to do this because the Bible does not provide any BCE dates.
Never mind that every one of the same sources that the WTS stakes its reputation on also agree that Jerusalem was destroyed 20 years after the Watchtower’s date.
And never mind that when these secular sources arrive at that date of 539 BCE, they are using dates and chronologies that the WTS does accept.(Response to WTS Step #2)
The WTS counts forwards two years to the time that some of the Jewish exiles returned (or was it when they met at the site of the Temple? They can never quite make up their mind about that).Why do they go forwards two years?Where is their “agreement with the rest of Bible chronology”? It’s what you and I call a “Furphy”, others might say a red herring hidden in a smoke screen.Why pick on that moment, does the Bible explicitly say so?Prove that they returned in 537 – can’t be done.(Response to WTS Step #3)
Neither Jeremiah nor Daniel said that the destruction of Jerusalem was the desolation.
Even after proclaiming that Judah and all surrounding nations (MT) were to serve Babylon for 70 years, Jeremiah still pleaded with Babylonian appointee Zedekiah to save the city from destruction by willingly serving Babylon, just as King Jehoiachin had done years before. Little wonder that Jews and Jerusalem and at Chaldea, as well as the Babylonians, still considered Jehoiachin to be the legitimate king of Judah.Doug
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Please Describe Your Autumn
by compound complex inwelcome fall!.
please describe autumn in your community.
its feel.
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Doug Mason
It's Spring here, and we are very fortunate in having some rain.
Doug
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The WTS's endpoint of the "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason in1. does the wts date the end the 70 years as soon as the babylonian exiles returned to the land, or when they started the building of the altar?.
(ezra 2:68 makes it clear that the returnees arrived early enough for the exiles to be settled in their own towns (verse 70) well before they started to build the altar in the seventh month of an unidentified year (3:1)).. .
2. why were the returnees frightened of the people around them when they started to build the altar (ezra 3:3)?
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Doug Mason
Thanks JD,
My objective is to tease out the rank inconsistencies of the WTS with the positions it holds. Sometimes they equate the end with the "return" while at others they speak about the gathering on the first of the seventh month (which clearly took place some time after the Return).
I will read your piece slowly with interest, but I wonder if you address the fact that Ezra never uses the expression "seventy years"?
The book of Chronicles was likely written some 200 years after the events by a community who had a religious agenda when it created that historical account. (The writer of Kings had a different agenda from the Chronicler, hence the inconsistencies in the outputs of those two communities.)
Another thought that should be teased out regarding the return is that the record claims it was Zerubbabel ("seed of Babylon"), Jehoiachin's legal heir, who brought them back. As we know, the exiles and many in Jerusalem still recognised Jehoiachin as their King, even though in exile. Even the Babylonian record calls him "King of Judah". Zedekiah was seen as a usurper, a Babylonian stooge. Puts a bit of a damper on the WTS's insistence that the kingdom finished when Zedekiah was deposed.
Perhaps you have done this already in your piece; I have not yet read through it.
Doug
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The WTS's endpoint of the "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason in1. does the wts date the end the 70 years as soon as the babylonian exiles returned to the land, or when they started the building of the altar?.
(ezra 2:68 makes it clear that the returnees arrived early enough for the exiles to be settled in their own towns (verse 70) well before they started to build the altar in the seventh month of an unidentified year (3:1)).. .
2. why were the returnees frightened of the people around them when they started to build the altar (ezra 3:3)?
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Doug Mason
Hi Scholar!
Where will I find that in the WT documentation?
I ask this because, as you can see, I find the above statements I have been given to be vague, even conflicting.
Is there is a verse in Scripture that points to this single event as being the terminus?
Regards,
Doug
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Translating Truth: The Case for Essentially Literal Bible Translation (PDF)
by Bangalore intranslating truth: the case for essentially literal bible translation (pdf).. .
download links: http://rapidshare.com/files/95365810/translating_truth.rar.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=iipq4un7.
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Doug Mason
Thanks for that! Looks very interesting.
In turn, I will refer you to a similarly interesting but very different book. This one asks when did writing the Scripture begin, and explores the political, regal and religious environments. So it goes beyond asking who was the author or looking at the grammar or syntax, and so on:
"How the Bible Became a Book", William M. Schniedewind.
Doug
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Jehovah's Kingdom
by chiliast ini'm announcing the public availability of my ongoing study.... www.jehovahskingdom.org.
if you're not interested in the bible or in eschatology, this isn't for you.
i'm posting it here in the bible research section, in case it's of interest to anyone on this board.
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Doug Mason
Hi,
I don't know if you have read the following book, but it could provide helpful thoughts:
"Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary", by Steve Grigg, ISBN 0-8407-2128-5
He provides parallel commentries from Historicist, Preterist, Futurist and Spiritual interpretations for each part of Revelation, with Ch 20 covered by Premillennial, Amillennial and Postmillennial schools.
Personally, I find it interesting how intolerant people are (including me) over the first few chapters of Scripture and also over its final chapters.
Doug
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The WTS's endpoint of the "70 Years"?
by Doug Mason in1. does the wts date the end the 70 years as soon as the babylonian exiles returned to the land, or when they started the building of the altar?.
(ezra 2:68 makes it clear that the returnees arrived early enough for the exiles to be settled in their own towns (verse 70) well before they started to build the altar in the seventh month of an unidentified year (3:1)).. .
2. why were the returnees frightened of the people around them when they started to build the altar (ezra 3:3)?
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Doug Mason
Thanks Guys,
These quotes tell me that the WTS says the people returned in the seventh month, settled into their respective towns (unpacked and so on), established the altar, and then met at the temple site on the first of the seventh month.
It was in the seventh month of this latter year that the first repatriated Jews arrived back in Judah. …
By October [the seventh month of the year] they were back and settled in their beloved homeland, before the first day of their seventh lunar month …
Sufficient time for the Jews to resettle in their homeland, ‘establish the altar firmly upon its own site,’ and "from the first day of the seventh month" start offering up burnt sacrifices to Jehovah.
This following quotation does not explain whether it was the actual release of the Jews by Cyrus that ended the 70 years, or whether it was the “return” that ended the 70 years. But if it was the “return” that ended the 70 years, then it was not ended when they met later at the temple site about “October 1”.
The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (Chronicles 36:17 - 23)
I know we can point to the guesses of “at least”, “doubtless” and “evidently”, as well as point to the unspecified “Astronomical tablets”. Also, the Watchtower assumes a Nisan calendar for the record of Cyrus’ reign, and their date of 537 ignores the separate reign by the Darius of Daniel that the WTS demands. But I shall leave these things aside.
Doug